Tourist stays

[Rockape]

Hi All, I thought id check with those of you who own property in a community that does not allow rental licenses. ( like ours)

We have one owner who, much to the annoyance of the rest of the community, appears to consistently rent out his house for short periods. It’s been brought up in the annual meetings, but nothing appears to change. Now an extraordinary meeting has been called to try and deal with this owner once and for all. The meeting agenda cites the following:

“a tourist stay shall be understood as the temporary transfer of the right of enjoyment by the owner of the property to third parties, whether or not in exchange for a price, of dwelling for short periods of time, understood as stays of days or weeks. In any case it is considered tourist stay the temporally cession of the right of enjoyment of the property, whether or not in exchange for a price, for a period of less than 31 days. Likewise, any transfer of the property by the owner to a thirds party when there is no lease contract formalized in accordance with the Urban Lease Law, Law 29/1994, is considered a tourist stay, provided that such temporary transfer is less than 2 months.

Now, I’ve never seen this before and wonder if it means that any of us are not legally allowed to let our friends use our place….or even family? If anyone knows a bit more about this or has experience of similar situations, id appreciate your thoughts?

 

[Luckyone]

Sorry no direct experience but I always thought it is okay to have family at your own property. I'm sure others will advise.

 

[Disorderly]

Hi All, I thought id check with those of you who own property in a community that does not allow rental licenses. ( like ours)

We have one owner who, much to the annoyance of the rest of the community, appears to consistently rent out his house for short periods. It’s been brought up in the annual meetings, but nothing appears to change. Now an extraordinary meeting has been called to try and deal with this owner once and for all. The meeting agenda cites the following:

“a tourist stay shall be understood as the temporary transfer of the right of enjoyment by the owner of the property to third parties, whether or not in exchange for a price, of dwelling for short periods of time, understood as stays of days or weeks. In any case it is considered tourist stay the temporally cession of the right of enjoyment of the property, whether or not in exchange for a price, for a period of less than 31 days. Likewise, any transfer of the property by the owner to a thirds party when there is no lease contract formalized in accordance with the Urban Lease Law, Law 29/1994, is considered a tourist stay, provided that such temporary transfer is less than 2 months.

Now, I’ve never seen this before and wonder if it means that any of us are not legally allowed to let our friends use our place….or even family? If anyone knows a bit more about this or has experience of similar situations, id appreciate your thoughts?

I’m pretty sure that family members would not be considered to be “third parties”. Very often, confusion arises in the translation from Spanish to English where some words, particularly legal ones, have no direct equivalent. Suffice to say that we will continue to enjoy our property as a family.

I would have thought that for a stay to be considered a rental, money would have to change hands and janitorial services be provided. I stand to be corrected but I think this interpretation exceeds the intention of the legislation.

 

[Julian Simms]

As far as I understand it, your major problem could be with the taxman and not the community.

If someone decides to alert the authorities that they suspect that you are renting the property, you would have to prove without a shadow of a doubt that no money changed hands and that no financial gain occurred on your behalf.

Easier said than done.

 

[Disorderly]

As far as I understand it, your major problem could be with the taxman and not the community.

If someone decides to alert the authorities that they suspect that you are renting the property, you would have to prove without a shadow of a doubt that no money changed hands and that no financial gain occurred on your behalf.

Easier said than done.

A good point, but one I imagine would only apply to larger communities where someone might object to unknown visitors and alert the authorities. Luckily, our community comprises four apartments, all owned by Brits and no rentals are allowed. We all know each other well, get on with each other, and keep each other informed of the occupation of our apartments, so I don’t see any likelihood of problems.

Of course others’ circumstances may differ.

 

[Rockape]

A good point, but one I imagine would only apply to larger communities where someone might object to unknown visitors and alert the authorities. Luckily, our community comprises four apartments, all owned by Brits and no rentals are allowed. We all know each other well, get on with each other, and keep each other informed of the occupation of our apartments, so I don’t see any likelihood of problems.

Of course others’ circumstances may differ.

Whether we communicate with each other or not, It’s either legal or not to allow friends and family to use your house, when no money has changed hands. People can make allegations, but does Spanish law accept someone is guilty of a crime without any evidence?

 

[Julian Simms]

I was under the impression that property owners pay an anual “rental value” tax based on its catastral value. Surely, if there is rent tax, then the authorities assume that rentals will take place if the council requirements have been met.

If I were renting to family or friends, and had any doubts about my neighbours ethics, I would declare a very minimal amount and pay tax on it.

 

[Disorderly]

Whether we communicate with each other or not, It’s either legal or not to allow friends and family to use your house, when no money has changed hands. People can make allegations, but does Spanish law accept someone is guilty of a crime without any evidence?

I really do think that an enormous mountain is being made of a molehill here.

 

[bobley]

When you say rentals aren't allowed- how is this declared? Is it in the deeds? Or do you mean that as a community you've decided not to allow touristic rentals and therefore no one can have a touristic licence.

If the owner who is renting his flat out blocks it out for over 31 days at a time then it isn't considered touristic and just becomes a normal long letting. He will pay tax in that amount I presume.

 

[Bircho]

https://property-lawyers.com/rental-licence-this-year/

What is Not a Holiday Letting?
If one of these apply, your property does not count as a holiday letting and therefore you won’t need an ETV:

Renting out your property seasonally as long as you aren’t marketing the house for tourism (via real estate agencies, social media etc)
Renting out your home for non-tourist use.
Renting out for longer than 1 month.
Letting your family or friends stay in the property for free.
Exchanging holiday rental homes.


Not sure if you let them stay in the property for free but they buy you dinner in errr Stay.

 

[Disorderly]

When you say rentals aren't allowed- how is this declared? Is it in the deeds? Or do you mean that as a community you've decided not to allow touristic rentals and therefore no one can have a touristic licence.

If the owner who is renting his flat out blocks it out for over 31 days at a time then it isn't considered touristic and just becomes a normal long letting. He will pay tax in that amount I presume.

In Spanish law properties that form a part of a community can only be rented if the majority of owners vote for this to be allowed. In our case we have all agreed that renting is not allowed. That decision, historically made when the property was built 18 years ago will have been minuted by the administrators.

 

[Rockape]

I really do think that an enormous mountain is being made of a molehill here.

Well yes, but the President of the community has now threatened my law abiding neighbor with legal action, because she has let her Goddaughter and family use their place. It’s all got out of hand because one person has pushed the rules and there have been a succession of two week stays by people we’ve never seen before. We have voted not to allow tourist rentals, but as we share a water meter, we don’t fit the requirements anyway.

Quite who would pay for the legal action is another thing, so it’s all bluff and bluster imo. But it’s causing grief, in a place we all go to relax.

 

[Julian Simms]

Tell him/her that having family or friends staying in your apartment is the only way you can avoid okupas (squatters) moving in.

 

[bobley]

I fully understand that you can all agree to not allow touristic rentals but I didn't realise you could stop any rentals whatsoever. I certainly wouldn't buy such a property and I imagine having this "covenant " will seriously reduce its value. I let any of my family and friend stay in my house and now with fuel prices reaching insane levels in the UK I have my folks wanting to stay long term too. Also, if things get worse i might have to rent my place long term to make a bit more cash. Im not condoning your neighbours behaviour but I can see their point. It's so restrictive it makes no sense. I would wager a beer that's its not legal to restrict someone's use of their own property to such a degree.

 

[Deanscroft]

There appears to be a misunderstanding here regarding the property owners imputed income tax. This relatively small annual tax is not a tax on any income derived from letting the property but a tax levied on the value of holiday homes and second homes. It is more a type of wealth tax. Any income derived from letting the property, be it paid in Spain or abroad, must be declared on Form 210 and will be taxed at 25%

 

[Sparky]

I fully understand that you can all agree to not allow touristic rentals but I didn't realise you could stop any rentals whatsoever. I certainly wouldn't buy such a property and I imagine having this "covenant " will seriously reduce its value. I let any of my family and friend stay in my house and now with fuel prices reaching insane levels in the UK I have my folks wanting to stay long term too. Also, if things get worse i might have to rent my place long term to make a bit more cash. Im not condoning your neighbours behaviour but I can see their point. It's so restrictive it makes no sense. I would wager a beer that's its not legal to restrict someone's use of their own property to such a degree.

Just be aware that fuel prices are eye watering here, my average electric bill was around 180 euros a month in winter but rose to over 400 euros last Dec, Jan and Feb.

 

[Julian Simms]

I fully understand that you can all agree to not allow touristic rentals but I didn't realise you could stop any rentals whatsoever. I certainly wouldn't buy such a property and I imagine having this "covenant " will seriously reduce its value. I let any of my family and friend stay in my house and now with fuel prices reaching insane levels in the UK I have my folks wanting to stay long term too. Also, if things get worse i might have to rent my place long term to make a bit more cash. Im not condoning your neighbours behaviour but I can see their point. It's so restrictive it makes no sense. I would wager a beer that's its not legal to restrict someone's use of their own property to such a degree.[/QUOTE.]

From what I understand the State can’t (if it meets the councils regulations) but a community can to avoid having strangers in the complex every few days/weeks.

I can’t see a community complaining about family or friends staying, nor should they. Can’t be legal to try and stop them either.

Apparently there is such a thing as a “Contrato de cesión de vivienda” which puts down in writing that the owner cedes his property free of charge for an undetermined period of time to the party stated in the contract.

Having this cheap piece of paper should solve the problem mentioned.

In theory !

 

[alcanadakid]

There appears to be a misunderstanding here regarding the property owners imputed income tax. This relatively small annual tax is not a tax on any income derived from letting the property but a tax levied on the value of holiday homes and second homes. It is more a type of wealth tax. Any income derived from letting the property, be it paid in Spain or abroad, must be declared on Form 210 and will be taxed at 25%

I wouldn’t describe this as small. Ours runs into four figures. It has increased this year from 19% to 24% because of Brexit

 

[Deanscroft]

My understanding is that for a non-resident the amount of property owners imputed income tax is calculated by taking 2% of the valor catastral and then taxing this at a flat rate of 25%. Therefore for a apartment with a VC of 200,000 euros the tax will be 1000 euros.

 

[bobley]

Just be aware that fuel prices are eye watering here, my average electric bill was around 180 euros a month in winter but rose to over 400 euros last Dec, Jan and Feb.

Spanish electricity is 20c/kwh compared to 49c/kwh at home( although it's going up another 20%). I have no gas in UK and use a heat pump so my average bill is £418/month... also, I'll be able to ride my bike and keep fit in Spain... if I can stay out of Can Moixet